Wednesday, April 11, 2007

For Students: Don't Collect Degrees

[2015 add-on: And when it comes time to negotiate that new job offer, check out our book on salary negotiation and more: How to Negotiate Your First Job!]

It is Wednesday, so it is time to respond to a student, "college kid", who asks below:

As someone who is in on the business/medical/policy of today's health care system, what do you think about the career prospects of those pursuing a joint JD/MPH? Is it worth it?

On the JD (Juris Doctor), the answer is simple. Don't go to law school unless you plan to become a lawyer. Here comes my gross generalization: Law school is not a place to expand your horizons and become better educated. It is a place to learn the trade of law. The curriculum is focused on giving you the tools and techniques and resources to be a lawyer. (And then you have to study for the bar exam, anyway.) The course of study is not designed to teach you public policy, health care policy, public management, corporate management, empathy, or most other things that would be helpful to you in a corporate or non-profit setting. If you are lucky, there will be some good courses on negotiation, arbitration, mediation, and dispute resolution -- but on that front you would be better off just enrolling in a really good negotiation course somewhere.

Some people think it is handy to go to law school if you plan to run for legislative office, either state or federal. But if you are ambitious in that direction, spend the three years you would otherwise pay tuition working for a legislator or Congressman. Get the hands-on experience. Once you are elected, you can always hire a good lawyer to work on your staff.

On the MPH (Masters in Public Health), I am sorry to say this because I don't believe it ought to be the case, but the degree is sometimes not valued in hospital settings. I have tried to figure this out. I think it is because hospitals are dominated by doctors, who often view an MPH as a poor substitute for a medical degree and think people who get one were not smart enough to get into medical school. Also, people in hospitals do not view themselves as being in the public health business: They are in the acute care business.

Please don't blame me for being the messenger on this point. I personally do not agree with either characterization. In fact, I find that many MPH graduates have a breadth of interest and experience that is really attractive. If you want to get an MPH as a precursor to working in a hospital, use every possible opportunity to do internships in hospitals where you actually have responsibility for planning and completing specific projects, and use term paper assignments to write about hospital management issues. Then, send me your resume.

A final point. Life in college is really good. Ditto for life in graduate school. These are seductive and comfortable environments, and it is easy to persuade yourself that time is better spent there than being on the outside with a job. After all, too, your role models are professors who have chosen to live their entire lives in academia. So, some people have a tendency to collect degrees, moving directly from one program to the next.

Graduate school is usually a good idea, but many people find it more valuable after they have spent some time working. That serves to focus your interests, which will help you get more out of an advanced degree. So, get out and see the world and experience some of its discomfort and uncertainty. See what it is like to have to earn enough money to pay for food, rent, utilities, school loans, and insurance. You will meet a wider variety of wonderful, interesting, practical, and thoughtful people, including generous, intelligent, kind, and well-meaning folks with no degrees at all, and you will learn from them in a tuition-free setting.

[2015 add-on: And when it comes time to negotiate that new job offer, check out our book on salary negotiation and more: How to Negotiate Your First Job!]


Anonymous said...

Thanks for your frank perspective on both degrees.

I can't help but respond on the MPH front. Let me preface my response with the fact that I have one. And I spent the first few years out of grad school working for a large powerful Hospital/Provider system.

I find truth in your comments on how this degree is regarded in comparison to a medical degree. However, I want to add that I really don't see an MPH as any kind of replacement for a medical degree. I have an undergraduate degree in English and I never planned (nor do I plan) on pursuing a medical degree.

Public Health is a vast and expanding field. I pursued the degree because I had worked in a hospital setting as well as in pharma (on the business end.) I wanted to change what I perceived to be a very complicated system that due to its own intricacies seemed to lose sight of the fact that the delivery of Healthcare is really about caring for people.

I realize that "fixing the system" is a tall order - but I also believe that the pursuit of a degree in public health is meant to facilitate this very ambition.

Anonymous said...

Years ago, I asked that question of many people, but the answer was different than Dr. Levy's answer- Don't get a MBA unless you want to work in finance; Don't get a MPA or MPH unless you want to work for the government; Do get a JD if you want to do both.

It is true that law school focuses on how to be a lawyer, but to meet the demands of the modern business world, law school also prepares future lawyers for careers in the private sector, and public sector, with concentrations in health policy, biotechnology, and public policy to name a few.

Being a lawyer today means you are the jack of all trades in all sectors. In a heavily regulated society, lawyers are valuable tools that are needed in the marketplace -whether a hospital, a government agency or a private sector corporation.

To use Dr. Levy's example - with high demand for the few spots in Congress, or the Massachusetts State House, you get your foot in the door by being a lawyer. You need to know the law to help make it and elected officials value that guidance. Then you get the door to stay open because of the respect for the degree. It is a doctorate and doctorate degrees still trump masters degrees.

However, the most valuable thing that you bring to your employer is the experiences you have and what you do with them. A degree is still just a part of the bag of tricks. Most employers don't value the list of letters after a name if there is no life experience to back it up.

I graduated from law school 7 years ago, and I appreciate the doors it has opened in my career in health policy. My law degree has surpassed other candidates with MBAs, MPAs, MPHs and even one with a MD/MPH. However, I went to school at night in order to concurrently build those life experiences, and I was responsible and professional in every opportunity I achieved.

So as you think about your future, think more than just letters. And more about how to get them, what should supplement them and what it is you want to do with your career - then let those decisions guide you. Best of luck and if you do decide to go the JD route, the Bar exam is not too bad.

Anonymous said...

Another perspective....

I, too, think that one should not got to law school unless one wants to practice law. After acquiring considerable education, I went to law school, only to find out after I graduates that I did not want to practice. Instead, I embarked on a health care consulting career. I found that legal education, especially the analytical training, was invaluable in figuring out solutions to myriad problems.

As far as an M.P.H. degree, there are two many out there who have them; many of them are underemployed or not employed at all.

Anonymous said...

"The course of study is not designed to teach you public policy, health care policy, public management, corporate management, empathy, or most other things that would be helpful to you in a corporate or non-profit setting."

I think this entirely depends on if the law school one attends has a health law program and how good it is. I recently had a law professor cancel a "Bioethics and the Law" class because she took a trip to Harvard to discuss the determination of death standard. The law school I attend also has classes in health care transactions and health care finance among others.

Anonymous said...

what about md/phd?

Adrienne said...

I just have to say that the real reason behind the comment that an MPH is a replacement degree for those who are not smart enough to get into medical school is money. Those who pursue an MPH are interested in the good of the population and not the bottom line. Most hospitals tout in their missions that their goal is to 'better the health of the population they serve'. What they often mean is that they want to 'better the health of the population they serve as long as it doesn't cost the hospital their profits'. Those of us who go into an MPH program truly want to help better the health of the population and believe that a hospital is in a unique and powerful position to do just that. Unfortunately, bettering the health of the population costs money up front and the hospitals aren't willing to take the risk that they will see the reward on the back end. Or, they are afraid that bettering the health of the population they serve will affect their bottom line in the long run because a healthier population means less visits to the hospital. I wanted to go into health care administration in the inception of my MPH. Now that I realize that most hospitals come from a place of greed and not altruistic caring I've changed my mind. JD/MPH here I come to help change make changes to policy that hopefully force the hospitals to think differently.

Anonymous said...

No one really mentioned an MPA. Currently I have a few years of experience after college and I work at the dtate house. I am debating between an MPA or law school. It seems like MPA arnt well respected but it also many times seems the most relevant to alot of jobs. An MPA is a policy degree.

Anonymous said...

There is some great advice here from the blogger.

However, it should be noted if you want to work in a hospital in management, you should pursue an MHA, not a JD, MBA, MPA or MPH.

Also, anyone who has an MPH knows that aren't a doctor! They are interested in population health issues.

Outside of a JD it may be best to get experience before studying for one of the "M" degrees. There is nothing worse than studying for a professional masters degree and not using the degree. I myself earned social science BA and MA degrees - and have now found myself working in the public health field in government for 5+ yrs. I'm thinking about studying towards an MPH part-time while working - and my MPH would definately be favored in my line of work over JDs or MBAs.

To the anyonmous responder thinking of an MPA - if you work in government, it is a respected degree.

Anonymous said...

I disagree with the notion that only a MHA is preferred for hospital management. MPHs with tracks in health policy and management provide tools for students to become excellent health care executives, in fact the MPH in management and the MHA are essentially identical degrees. Many of the same courses are taken and topics overlap. Typically, the MHAs separate themselves with their internships where MPHs intern in a broader scope of agencies/industry.

I on the other hand am pursuing a JD/MPH and hope to work in bigpharma, consulting, or actuarial industry. I want to work in the private industry I firmly think that my unique background and degrees will open many doors.

Anonymous said...

This in in response to the March 3 post...If you know you want to work in management or policy related to primary care, the MHA is the degree to pursue. On the other hand, if you want to work on population health issues the MPH the degree to obtain. That being said MHAs do work in pop health and MPHs work in primary health care settings.

For those who want the best of both worlds study at a school that allows you to study towards an MHA plus a graduate certificate in core public health concepts.

Anonymous said...

Health care industry turns to MBA's to run it like a business but everything fails because clinicians and MD's are not customer/patient focused. Worst is that they are not big on linking operations processes within cross functional departments.

Too many egos flying on the corridors of the building, especially the doctors.

Anonymous said...

"I agree about linking operations process with cross functional departments". Healthcare sites; hospitals, ambulatory surgery centers etc. are clueless to process and procedures and corrective action methods. they are against anything that is documenting order to prevent lawsuits.

Keep in mind there are more corporations, business than hospitals or clinics. Therefore, I will get the MBA to increase my chances of being employed on a luggish economy.

Also doctors need to be more humble. Once they learn the art of being humble they might find it easier to be patient/customer focused.

Ram said...

I disagree with the comparison of the MHA degree (specific skill set) versus the MPH (a variety of skill sets under one degree name). A MHA holder will definitely be better at running a hospital than someone with a MPH in biostatistics, or community Health, or environmental Health, etc. This is because a MPH has several areas of study. The Health Policy & Management (HP&M) area (with a management track) is equivalent to a MHA degree. In fact many old MPH HP&M programs changed their name to MHA in order to be more "popular" and less confusing. A good way to find programs is to search that are accredited by CAHME. There you will find programs with a variety of letters MHA, MBA, MPH, MPA, MHSA, MSHA, MS, etc, etc.

Anonymous said...

I just found this blog and I felt that I needed to say "Thank you". I was debating about going for my JD/MPH or MD but thanks to all of you I have made my decision. JD/MPH here I come!

Anonymous said...

I am completing a MPH presently to compliment a MED and HR coursework and experience. I am also working on the PHD in PH. As one person said experience goes along way in making degrees work for you. Having connections in places will also give you what you need to, no matter the degree. In other words, you must work what you have to its fullest potential.Sometimes having certificates in areas will add to job choices. Try certificates with your alphabet soup. It can add to the flavor of things!

Anonymous said...

I found this blog by searching for university degree options to persue after graduating with a BSHA in 2014. I have finally decided to headed for admissions to a JD/MHA program. Thanks a million for assisting in making a decisive decision.

May 20th, 2014 1:32PM

Anonymous said...

Paul Levy, I stumbled upon your blog. You are part of the older generation, business profesionals who have fallen out of touch with current directions in health care. With Obama and health reform, the entire US is going towards population health. Hospitals NEED people skilled in population management. No wonder you are no longer with the hospital systems.

Paul Levy said...

Dear Anonymous,

First of all, I wrote this post in 2007, three years before the federal legislation passed. So, on that ground alone, it is a bit unfair to criticize the views presented.

Second, my comments about the way people in hospitals view people with MPH degrees still is often the case. I know this from talking with people around the country. As I note in this post, that's a shame, but such prejudices still exist.

Third, the degree to which the "entire US is going towards population health" remains in question. I'd like to think it is, but I don't see a lot of evidence as yet for that.

Now, let's turn to the personal approach you used in your comment. You state that I am out of touch with current directions in health care, but you have never talked to me about that topic. You end by making an assertion as to why I am no longer in a hospital system.

If you believe that this kind of commentary is a way to be persuasive with people, I fear that you will not do very well in the world of hospitals OR population health. A bit of respect for people--even when you disagree with their opinions--is something of great value for people who want to make changes in the health care environment. My career advice to you would be to learn the phrase "disagree without being disagreeable." And then practice doing it.

Finally, if you have something nasty to say about someone, at least have the guts to publish your name beside your comment and not stand behind a veil of anonymity.

Anonymous said...

Hello Mr. Levy

I must say your response to the previous post was something.

But he or she did raise a point about the direction of Obamacare and how it affects MPH Programs and other programs that focus on "Population Health".

You did state:
"Third, the degree to which the "entire US is going towards population health" remains in question. I'd like to think it is, but I don't see a lot of evidence as yet for that."

But I would like to elaborate on that comment, and also provide information on what you might expect from Obamacare and MPH in the next 10 years or so. Just because I’ am in pursuit of an MPH degree and want to know what my outcomes might be since healthcare is rapidly changing.

Thank You.
(Hopefully I made some sense in my post)

Paul Levy said...

I guess I am not sure if health care is rapidly changing in the US. It would be great if there were of a focus on population health, such as exists in Sweden and elsewhere, but the political and cultural environmnt is very different. The "rugged individualism" that infuses American life tends to work against programmatic possibilities in the public health realm. I don't know if that will change.

I really admire the people I know who have gotten MPH degrees. They often have a broad and systemic view of the world that is quite useful. There will always be a place for you: I just don't know how much will be valued in the US versus elsewhere in the world.

Do you like to travel . . . ?

Anonymous said...

Thank you for responding so quickly.

In all honesty I do enjoy traveling, but I would not really consider a career that involves traveling as a requirement.

Anonymous said...

Interesting article as I'm considering the JD/MPH although already hold a BSc and MSc in molecular medicine from the UK.

I think with the progressive advance in the US of the affordable care act (which will be a success), the MPH would be very useful on top of a J.D., especially if you want to work in public health, or with the government. I think big pharma would also see this as a plus, although this is purely a guess.

Anonymous said...

I am sorry. but doctors don't "dominate" hospiials anymore. Indeed in most large academic institutions we are nothing but cogs in the wheel to serve at the whim of administration which is completely out of touch with our and our patients needs. I'm saying this as an academic doc who is about to leave academia due to my disgust with the present army of MBA's/MHA's andthe rest of the clipboard brigade who run the institution and have complete disconnect with the docs and nurses. Food for thought, patients don't go to hospital to see the adminstrator, they go for medical care. I have little hope the private practice is much better, but at least their will be no illusions as to why I am there and certainly no verbal bullshit as to "supporting" research and education all the while tightening the screws of seeing more patients and increasing the RVU's. I have rarely met an MHA/MBA in the hosptial setting who is little more than a clueless parasite sucking of the hospital teat.

Diane said...

BSN RN, Tulsa, OK
Stumbling upon this blog was wonderful. I enjoyed the comments, both positive and negative. I have been a nurse for 21 years and have worked in various settings. I am seriously considering pursuing the JD/MPH degrees. I have no desire to be a doctor. I have always found law to be intriguing and I enjoy rendering care to the sick and dying. I feel that the JD/MPH would be a great marriage to fulfill my passion.I see a disconnect between those who need health care and the lack of appropriate resources available to help them. In many cases resources are available but the patient and/or their loved ones do not know how to access it. I would appreciate your comment!

Anonymous said...

Dear Dr Levy,

I read your blog post about MPH with much interest. I am a fourth year surgical resident in Singapore. Unlike the four year program in the US, residency in my country is a six year program that is split 4+2 (2 years of what is known as senior residency).
My career goal after completing residency is to serve in the public sector for several years, focussing mainly on clinical work but devoting about 20% of my time to hospital administration or public health. As I get older, I hope to shift gears into more public health.
I am on the cusp of senior residency and am contemplating either an MPH or an MPP. There is a public health residency in my country and it is compulsory for those residents to complete MPH. However, there are currently no surgical residents with an MPH. I also do not know of any doctors with MPP in Singapore. In your esteemed opinion, would an MPH or MPP be more suitable for me? As you can tell, I'm hoping to create something of a niche for myself as a clinician-public health physician..
Thank you for your time! :)

Paul Levy said...

I'm so sorry, but I don't know anything about the situation in your country, so I can't really advise you.

Yael Holland said...

I just searched and saw your blog. I absolutely love this post and your blog. I am newly graduated with an MPH and working in a large healthcare system right now. I would love to connect with you via linkdin for a new different opportunity if possible.

Paul Levy said...

Please do!

Anonymous said...

Mr. Levy,

What would be the right course of action for a JD? I got my undergrad in health administration, and I would like to transition into working in a hospital. Should I get an MBA? Awesome blog btw!

Paul Levy said...

I'd suggest going to work for a while and getting a feel for what might be most useful.

Anonymous said...

Mr Levy,

Most helpful discussion, Thank you!

I am an undergraduate Sports Science Fitness Managment Major, and planning for graduate school. I am taking a finance accounting class to better prepare me. I am currently interned with a large metro area hospital and was bridged to them through a retired ceo of another hospital. I am labeled as an executive administrative assistant because of the many tracks I observe. I have evaluated Phy Therap Ipt/Opt, Nursing, Cardiac Rehab, Nuclear/Echo Lab, Project Manager meetings, Catherization Lab, and a couple of Directors board meetings that went over capital request. My beleif is that hospitals are centered around budgeting for a value based care now. Additionally I think understanding policy as well as administration would be vital for landing a impactful role to healthcare. I want to be cautiously optimisitc about my next step towards education to save time, money, and make sure Im valuable in more than just what my degree may read.

Initally I thought about going into nursing strictly for the economy of the job, accelerated program putting me into the workforce faster and I thought it would be easier to transition to managment, but I discovered the area of managment would be nursing centered and you get overworked for hardly any money. I was afraid that mha/mph fields were overly saturated and the economy wouldnt abosrb before I graduated.

I want to work with policy and administration, as it relates to health patients. I also want to survive any storm ( dollar crash, or anything dramatic) that nears in the economy, which makes me feel like a JD/mph could never be without a respectable job.

Paul Levy said...

It sounds like you need to figure out, first, what would make you happiest.

Anonymous said...

Mr. Levy,

Great blog. I stumbled on this post while researching MHA and MPH degrees. I think you may have already outlined it a bit here, but I'm currently in the process of deciding which M to pursue and was curious if you had any additional thoughts.

Let me give you some brief background. I have a BS in Management and am a CPA. I worked in a very small public accounting firm for four years primarily doing auditing/accounting work for small not-for-profit organizations and individual and small business taxes. I transitioned into an analyst role in healthcare finance at a medium sized hospital about a year and half ago. Through my career experience so far, I have determined that I am almost certainly wanting to be in something nonprofit, preferably healthcare. I also want to be in a leadership position where I can affect and influence positive change, up to and including a C-suite position, although any position where I can affect change is fine with me. I'm not bent on being CFO or CEO. I'm not set on finance, either, but still enjoy it. I like the idea of hospital management and administration, but I also am open to other areas of leadership and education where I could potentially influece positive change.

I was leaning towards an MHA, although in my current area there are no MHA programs available, so online is the only option. Recently I became aware of a local university which offers and MPH with the HP&M track. The classes seem nearly identical to most MHA programs I've looked at.

If I'm even thinking of hospital administration at some point, do you think an MPH:HP&M track would be taken seriously, or would an MHA (even if through online) be a better bet? I'm not solely interested in the credentials - I want a good, solid education as well.

As an aside, I've ruled out MBA. I want something more focused.

Paul Levy said...

You ask:

"If I'm even thinking of hospital administration at some point, do you think an MPH:HP&M track would be taken seriously, or would an MHA (even if through online) be a better bet? I'm not solely interested in the credentials - I want a good, solid education as well.

As an aside, I've ruled out MBA. I want something more focused."

As I've noted above and continue to see, MPH degrees in the US hospital world are not highly regarded. Assuming HP&M stands for health policy and management, I don't think that changes how it is viewed by those running hospitals. That being said, I don't think online degrees are--as yet--given as much crediblity as on-site degrees.

Before getting the next degree, why don't you seek a job in a hospital and see what it's like, and then figure out which degree would best suit the environment you've learned about?

Anonymous said...

Thanks for your quick reply. I should clarify, I already do work in a hospital and have for the past year and a half. My comment about wanting to be in healthcare was meant for going forward, I want to either stay in healthcare or be in nonprofit if not healthcare.

I appreciate your insights. Thank you!

Ksia said...

What if that MPH in Health Management is from schools like Harvard, Yale and Johns Hopkins? Would it still seen less valuable than an MHA or an MBA?

Paul Levy said...

If you want to work in America, yes. If you want to work somewhere else in the world where public health is a more respected field, no.

My post does not mention MHAs, but if I had to choose, I'd favor the MBA over an MHA.

Anonymous said...

Mr. Levy, I would appreciate your thoughts. I have a MPA in H.C.Administration and a MS in Organizational Change Management. I've been a generalist as I enjoy change and have many interests: acute, ambulatory, and long term care as well as work in social services providing services to individuals with I/DD and in behavioural health.

I seem to have gravitated towards social services and have thoughts of State or Federal government though I would probably become overly frustrated with their pace.

I guess I have a couple inquiries: If I persue a doctorate or JD, what concentrations would round-out my Masters? Also, I would love to work abroad or for an agency where there might be intermittent travel. Would you have any suggestions?

Thanks for your thoughts.

Paul Levy said...

Whoa, you have two masters degrees and you want to back to school for more? My first reaction is that you've already spent enough time getting degrees and that it's time to get more experience in the work place and figure out what you really care about doing.

But if you want to get a Ph.D., it should not be to "round out" your masters. You only get a Ph.D. for one of two reasons: (1) To become an academic and be a professor somewhere; or (2) to work in a place like the World Bank, where they seem to value that degree. As to what field you should pursue for a Ph.D., you'll need to pick a field where you can make an original contribution to the field. Based on what you've learned and experienced to date, can you imagine what that might be? If not, don't even think about getting a Ph.D.

As to a JD, you only go to law school to become a lawyer. You don't go to law school to round out your education. It is a trade school. It is not a place to expand your intellectual capital, unless, again, you intend to enter academic law and become a professor. If so, you should, again, have a sense of where you can make an original contribution to the field.

On the professional front, if you fear that the state or federal government would be too slow for you, don't go there. Slowness is the nature of government. It is designed to be slow and deliberative.

Your last point about wanting an agency where there might be travel suggests that you are putting the cart before the horse. First, find an agency that excites your passions and sense of purpose. If it involves travel, then you get a bonus. But, don't pick an agency that involves travel for the sake of the travel.

In short, it sounds like it's time to stop being such a generalist and get your hands dirty actually working in the trenches and doing something interesting and difficult. After a few years of that, you can figure out if more formal education is worth doing. Sorry, but your note suggests that you are using college as a crutch to avoid committing to some job where you will have to test out what you really care about. Take a leap!

Sandra said...

I need help. I currently have a MPH. I am interested in hospital administration. I was told that I shouldn't pursue a MHA because they were too similar. What courses should I take or field of study should I pursue?

Paul Levy said...

First, think through why you think you need another degree, as opposed to getting a job and some experience?

Second, there are sometimes overlaps betweeh MPH and MHA degrees, but not always. Check the specific curriculum. You might want to consider an MBA if you are interested in business matters. It is valuable in the hospital world but also beyond to other fields.

Paul Levy said...

And third, to help you decide, talk to some actual hospital administrators in your area and see what they advise. Ask them what path they took.

Anonymous said...

Dr Mr. Levy,

I am a bachelor's of health administration graduate. I began looking for work after graduation, and at right at the 6 month mark, I was successful in obtaining employment as a research assistant in a hospital. While not a 100% match, there was some overlap (statistics came in handy!). After having a discussion with my boss regarding further education, I indicated that I am not sure what to do. I considered going for an MHA, but because it similar to my undergrad, I want something different for post grad. This is where I feel the MPH has uniqueness. There is still is some overlap in health admin, but there are more course offerings in different domains. However, my chief concern, as silly as it is, is earning potential. As much as I strive to work hard, and realize money is not the most important thing, I don't want to be capped at $50k, and dealing with contract work a lot, considering I want to provide for my family and want to be fiscally prudent. What would you suggest? MPH? MHA? Or even an MBA or MPA? I know that MBAs, MHAs of the bat can earn more, but even that aside..I'm not going to be a CEO right out of grad school and considering I couldn't even find a health admin position with undergrad, I am not too sure about the demand for health admin jobs right now.

Apologies if I am all over the map! Thanks in advance for your reply.

Anonymous said...

Same person again...if I do decide to one day be in a health admin position, would the bachelor's degree coupled with some years of experience suffice or does it have to be all about the MHA? I did enjoy my studies-health policy, admin and informatics are all interesting, but again, it's nice to get a second degree in another field for more calibre.

Paul Levy said...

MPH degrees are not highly valued in health care admininstrative circles in the US (compared to some other countries.) Rightly or wrongly, they are viewed as "soft." Also, notwithstanding recent changes in healht care policy, hospitals generally don't view their job as "public health." In terms of earning potential in the US, MBAs are likely most valuable in the health care field, even more than MHAs.

But these are generalizations. You should talk to people in the kind of organizations in which you'd like to work, especially those holding jobs in the areas of interest to you. See what they say and advise based on the local scene. Among those to talk to are alumni from your former school who are out in the work force. Don't be shy: They'll be happy to advise you. Ditto for your professors--although, frankly, they might be less in touch with what matters to employers.

Whatever you do, don't choose a course of study at school just to make more money. Find topics and professors and a school that stimulates you and broadens your horizons.

Anonymous said...

Thanks for your quick reply, Paul!

I did some research and it turns out that there are hospital CEOs in the US do have MPHs. I think it is unfair to say that an MPH automatically disqualifies anyone from an executive position in healthcare. In a way, it's who you know not what you know that determines your job search, in addition to marketing the transferable skills you mastered in prior work experiences.

Having said this, if I do go along with an MPH, what are the chances that I can find employment later on in an executive/admin setting later on, given the fact that I already achieved a bachelor's in health administration? I have not heard of anyone who went by this path, given the fact that a BHA is relatively new, but perhaps you may have, which is why I am asking around.

There is unfortunately not a large alumni network at my university, as the degree was created within the past 5 years.


Paul Levy said...

I didn't say "an MPH automatically disqualifies anyone from an executive position in healthcare." It is not clear to me why you accuse me of being unfair or assert that I said something like that. I am just summarizing my impression of the landscape, based on my experience.

I can't give you a general answer to the question you ask. I wouldn't begin to know how to calaculate such chances.

You seem to have a theory of how employment and advancement takes place: "In a way, it's who you know not what you know that determines your job search, in addition to marketing the transferable skills you mastered in prior work experiences." If you believe that is the correct path, then take steps to follow it!

Anonymous said...

I am sorry if my reply was deemed offensive, that was the least of my intentions.

Ultimately, I am the one to make the decision of what to do with my life, and people can only offer insight based on their unique experiences.

Thank you anyways for your insight nonetheless. It is quite a nuanced decision to make. The issue is that I don't know anyone in public health, at least not yet...thus challenging the employment theory of "who you know".

Paul Levy said...


Please recall that you are the one who contacted me, and that I have spent time trying to respond as well as I could to your questions.

My one career suggestion, based on this short interchange, is that you think carefully about how you use words.

Anonymous said...

Noted. English is my third language, and I have a habit of misusing words. It's not an excuse, but I want to conclude our dialogue on a positive note.

Thank you, Mr. Levy.

Paul Levy said...

My very best wishes for happiness and success! Think less about the money and more about what moves you.

Anonymous said...

Dr. Levy you are amazing!

Paul Levy said...

Not sure what prompted that, but thanks! (I'm not a doctor, btw.)

gary felder said...

Not sure why a JD/MPH is a bad option if you not thinking about working in a hospital environment but rather biotech/pharm/IP corporate law or non-profit supporting work around population health. It just seems that this skill set would be even more in demand today than 10 years ago.

Nathan G. said...

Hello Mr. Levy,

Thank you so much for your insightful posts.
I need your advise, but first let me share some of my background:

I am 25 years old, hold a Bachelors in Health Administration with 3 years experience working in the outpatient managed care setting as a program coordinator in Case/ Utilization management for a Medical Group.

Currently I am finishing up a Masters in Public Health- Community Health Education (focuses on program planning, implementation and evaluation of community health programs) who will be graduating this semester. Unfortunately mid-way through my program I discovered that I am not passionate about public health work. While working in healthcare I fell in love with healthcare administration the longer I exposed to it. I am now afraid the MPH will not let me move up since it's not a healthcare administration degree...

Are my fears real? Do you advise I get a second masters to allow me mobility up the healthcare administration latter? If yes, perhaps go back for a MHA or MBA in finance (which one would be more marketable?).

I am not in any kind of student debt, money won't be an issue, and able to balance working full time and school so would be able to continue accruing experience.

I believe my long term goal would be to work in performance improvement/ quality, project management or some sort of senior operations manager in the outpatient setting (for a large health plan, healthcare system like UCLA, or medical group)...

Please advise.

Many thanks.

Kind Regards,


Paul Levy said...

I'd check around with the HR departments at local hospitals and try to get a sense of how they value the MPH degree. My guess, in the US, is that hospital people will not value it as much for administrative types of jobs, but it's worth testing out that proposition before you spend time and money on yet another degree.

Also, do you have class choices in the MPH program that might emphasize administrative stuff, so you can boost those capabilities?

Anonymous said...

Mr. Levy, I am planning on potentially obtaining a JD plus a masters degree and or a Ph.D. I am highly considering a JD/ Masters and or Doctorate in Bioethics / policy. My career goals are to somehow intertwine bioethics, law, and possibly my christian faith if possible into my career in someway such as but not limited representing clients who are suing medical entities / professionals for bioethicall/ religious freedom violations relating to but not limited to contraption / abortion / end of life matters etcetera, bioethicall / legal consulting, health care administration / management, all phases of bioethicall / health / legal / faith policy from concept drafting to implementation and follow up, Counsel to health care organizations, both sides of medical malpractice defense including civil / constitutional / criminal violations such as but not limited to unlawful imprisonment/ battery / assault, both sides of defense in HIPPA violation cases, all areas of general health law, and advising/ drafting of legal documents with a health focus such as health care proxys,medical power of attorney etcetera, health care contractual law, plus possibly running for elected office and or becoming a judge in the future. with my career goals determined I know that obtainig my Jursis Doctorate is required but my questions to you are :


Is a Masters and or Doctorate degree in bioethics / health policy a good option in conjunction to a JD in regards to my career goals and ambitions? Why or why not?


What advanced / professional degrees would you advise me to obtain in addition to my JD to best advance my career goals and why?


Would you say that my career goals fall under the category of niches?


do you think establishing a law and consulting firm would be a wise career move? Why or why not?

5) since my income is an important factor what do you think would and wouldnt be wise career moves? Why?

Thank you,


Paul Levy said...

Sorry, but I can't help on this. It is way too complicated for me. My only reaction is that it is impossible to plan a career in this detail.

Gregory DeMatteo said...

Hi Dr. Levy,

First off, I really like your original post and think there is certainly valuable perspective in it; whether or not people want to listen is a different story. I would very much appreciate your perspective on an MPH in big pharma.

I'm a 25 year old with a degree in business from Rutgers. I've spent my entire career (3-4 yrs) in R&D business at a major biopharma company. I am going to get my MBA to level the playing field as I try to climb the ladder but my question is around an MPH (would dual MBA/MPH).

Do you think, or have you ever witnessed that, an MPH would be valuable for one to have in a pharma/business setting? I want my credentials to show that I have some understanding of healthcare outside of business - in no way trying to trump an MD though! I see the MPH as giving me that outside perspective and therefore, expands my value to the organization.

Many thanks in advance for your time.


Paul Levy said...

Most MPH degrees give you some training in epidemiology, which can be very useful in the pharma world, whether at drug companies or their supporting clinical research organizations. Whether a masters is sufficient or whether you'd need a PH.D. is something I can't answer. Best to inquire at some of the companies.

Anonymous said...

I hold an MBA and an MPA and I find that neither one of these expensive degrees is helping me to get out of the retail industry. I have been in the retail industry for over 12 years in finance and budgeting and I needed a change. I have been laid off from 3 different companies due to bad business and restructuring since 2008. I don't have any prior experience in a healthcare setting so no one is even giving my resume a look. I have good budgeting and planning skills that can be transferred to a career in healthcare or public administration. But to no avail. If I don't find a job paying close to what I was making, my grandkids and yours with be footing my student loan debt because there is no way that I am going to be able to pay it being unemployed off and on, in a career I don't want to be in.

Paul Levy said...

Did you have a question?

Anonymous said...

How do I break into the healthcare field with no experience? Do I need to start off as a receptionist?

Paul Levy said...

A hospital is like a small city, with the full panoply of jobs, many of which require no experience int he field. Look through the job listings and see how they might match up with your skills and experience. Even if they ask for HC experience, make the case that you bring some important things to the table.

And if you are very good with people, sure, start as a receptionist!

Anonymous said...

I've graduated from college with a bachelor's of science degree in behaviorial health. My university likes to call it "Health Behavior Science". Overall, I walked out with an abysmal GPA, no research experience, and have to fix this by talking to grad schools that I want to get into to see if I have a chance of still getting into the specific ones I have my eyes set on. Post-bacc is the obvious answer to show them I can still do well in academics. I've also interned at my state health department in Delaware, and I'm waiting on an interview for a paid position within the same office I interned in.

Anyway, I'm looking at Physican assiatant schools to become a PA. Im also looking to get an MPH/MD, or just an MPH if I can't get into PA school as an alternative. I don't wanna ask the same questions that others have asked here. I know PAs can get jobs almost anywhere.

My question is, how often do people with an MPH w/MD secure positions amongst people with just an MPH?
Also is an MPH w/MD valued in hospitals over just an MPH? How about an MPH w/MBA?
Which is more of a challenge?

It's been 3 months since I graduated from college and I have no job...I'm trying to get a full time position within a hospital like a medical assistant or a clinical research associate where I can have patient interaction because this is what PA schools require as a pre-requisite before applying to their schools, correct? The kind of patient interaction that Med. Assistants and CRCs deal with is eligible clinical hours that PA schools look for correct?


Paul Levy said...

Lots of questions! i suggest you go talk to some hospital HR departments to ask their advice on what's most useful for them. Don't call them looking for a job: Call and ask to talk with someone about career planning.

Anonymous said...

Hi, I graduated with a B.S. in Healthcare Administration in May and would like to gain some experience before applying to graduate schools. As of right now, I am applying to any jobs that I feel that I am qualified for, but what do you recommend is an adequate entry level job? I want to eventually work in senior management but I'm not sure how to get there, and I feel lost as in what to specialize in (finance, HR, IT, Coding, marketing, etc).

Paul Levy said...

I'd shoot for an operational road, assistant clinic manager, for example. Get a sense of what it takes to keep patients staff, and doctors all happy. It's hard work and gives you a sense of how process flows work (or don't) and how hard it is to improve things. The stuff you learn in that kind of setting will prove useful wherever you eventually end up.

Anonymous said...

Mr. Levy,

Forgive me this lengthy post; I'm at a bit of a crossroads and would love your input. I'm 31 and a lecturer at a public US university. I'm two years from tenure (our version for lecturers) and I've had solid leadership experience and great success transforming and developing a struggling writing and literacy program. I've grown the budget 300%+ overall in three years, tripled our staff (now at >45 people), and we help about 5K students annually. I have a BA and MA, both in English and from great schools. If I want to advance in academic administration I need a PhD, but for my own reasons, I want to transition to a career in health management, specifically working in a hospital. I feel my strengths are in leadership-team building, creating an empathetic/accountable work culture, bringing in grant money, and strategic organizational thinking (at least on the smallish scale I've been working on). My hope is to do as much good in the world as I can before leaving it (sounds cliche'd, I know). Working in public higher education has allowed me to begin, but I've had a lot of profound personal experiences in the last few years and my goal would be to one day run a hospital. Based on the fairly large amount of research I've done, it seems an MBA (m7) would be my best bet, either executive/part-time so I could keep working or traditional format. In your opinion, would this be my best route? Also, am I nuts to want to leave academia for a hospital? Too old to transition? Any advice or thoughts you have are much appreciated, and thank you for this blog--it's great!!

Uncertain in NYC

Paul Levy said...

HI there,

You're not too old! It's a worthy goal!

An executive MBA with a program specializing in health care administration would likely be a good path. Here is Boston, for example, there are such programs at Boston University and other places. I'd bet you can find them in NYC, too.

But in the meantime, why not call and make an appointment at the HR department of some local hospitals--not to look for a job--but to talk to people about what they are looking for as they hire folks? Also, survey your friends: I'd best some of them work in hospitals or know people who do, and you can have a cup of coffee and explore what life is like in those settings, what they've enjoyed, what they've not enjoyed, and get their suggestions. I bet you'll find lots of people willing to give you their perspectives.

Best of luck!

Lorraine Crichton said...

Hi Mr. Levy,

My name is Lorraine and I just finished my bachelors degree in health administration. I'm looking at grad schools, and wanted to get some input from you. I'm bouncing between deciding on a MHA/MBA joint degree as well as an MPH/MBA joint degree.
I know you said the MPH wasn't as respected in the US or in hospitals as it should be, and I can see that's the case. But I did want to tell you my goals and solicit your advice. First, I would like to run a hospital, but I would also like to work for the government in the health sector, in places such as the NIH or quite possibly the WHO at the regional office of the Americas in Washington DC.

Which joint degree would you advise me to pursue based on your insight?

Thank you for your time,


Paul Levy said...

Hi Lorraine:

You say "I would like to run a hospital, but I would also like to work for the government in the health sector, in places such as the NIH or quite possibly the WHO." These are two very different paths. The MHA is likely to be more helpful in the former, while the MPH is more likely to be helpful in the latter.

Why don't you go out and work a while before choosing graduate school? I think you'd find the experience helpful and also would enhance your chance of being accepted into graduate school.

Kristina Roger said...

Hey everyone I've been reading and love this blog ! I'm still a little confused. I graduated this semester with my bachelors in health services administration and planned to get my MBA with a focus on healthcare administration. I also have recently been considering law school. (But my husband is military so we move every 2-4years, so I NEED a degree that is easy to travel with)
I love working with people, doing paper work and all that good stuff. But I mostly want to make sure I have job security for the long run. Any advice what degree to go for ?

Paul Levy said...

Don't get a law degree unless you want to be a lawyer! Plus each state hss its requirement for entry in to the Bar, so if you are moving a lot, it mught be a bit cumberosme.

Kristina Roger said...

So is a bachelors in health administration is a good degree to travel with? If I don't go for law I think I plan to go for MBA with a focus in health administration or go for my RN degree.

Kimberly said...

Hi Mr. Levy,

Your post provided a lot of insight. I'm currently in my last year of school finishing up a BA in Public Health Policy. I've been trying to decide between pursuing an MPH or MBA. My ultimate goal would be to work as a healthcare consultant for a big firm, such as Deloitte or Accenture. Which would you deem more valuable?

Paul Levy said...


That's quite a difference, between and MBA and an RN! Figure out where your passion is, not what you think will be "best to travel with."


You should ask them, but I'd guess they'd value the MBA more. Call them and ask!

Ryan A. said...

Hello Mr. Levy,

I'm an attorney working for a medical school handling their sponsored/corporate research deals and contracts. I interact often with clinicians, pharmaceutical companies, medical doctor, Ph.Ds, and attorneys who have strong scientific credentials. I really enjoy the environment and the work that I do but I want to increase my value and broaden my opportunities by bolstering my scientific background. I have seen a trend in biostatistics being a hot field and I am actually interested in it! My question is, is a MPH with a biostatistics concentration substantial enough or do you think that this will not be (as) respected as you have noted? I have noticed that there aren't too many people with this particular background (including people in my office) even though it is in demand. Do people take into account your MPH concentration? I ask because there seem to be many tracks. Thank you for still responding to this 9 year old post, haha!

Paul Levy said...

Yes, for your purposes, the MPH with a strong concentration in biostatistics could work well. But make sure you go to a university that really has a good reputation in that field. Why not ask some of your pharma clients which places would fit the bill? Good luck!

Ryan A. said...

Johns Hopkins is #1 in both MPH programs and biostatistics (not to mention I can earn it mostly online), so I'm aiming for that! I see now that my question is a little off mark because I am not aiming for hospital administration management goals and that seems to be the post's focus.

What roles can I look into at a hospital should I ever decide that the academic side is just too wonderful to stand?

Thank you for your help!

Paul Levy said...

Academic medical centers have many of the same funcitons as univerisities. You could look there. said...

Mr Levy,
I am deciding between an MHA program from Ohio University versus an MHCM (Masters in Healthcare Management program from Hopkins. I have 14 years of Rehabilitation management and I have a Doctorate in Physical Therapy. My goal is to move up to a health system management/director/executive. Which degree would be more marketable and respected to make it to my goal?

Paul Levy said...

I imagine both are good programs. I'd pick the one based on where I'd like to live. People often value degrees from universities in their region. Also, your professors are more likely to have connections with local health systems, and they can help you with networking when it's time to look for a job. If your potnetial job market, though, is on either the East or West coast, people will value the Hopkins degree more. A bit of snobery on their part perhaps, but some people are like that!

Best of luck! said...

Thanks so much for the input Mr. Levy.
Just to clarify, does this mean an MHCM degree and an MHA degree are comparable in terms of my career path to be in the executive management or administration?

Paul Levy said...

I guess it depends on the particular coursework in each degree, but my guess is that they'd be comparable. In either case, though, look for a strong analytical focus, not just survey courses on this and that. Employers want to believe that you can bring a rigorous approach to the issues facing their health care systems. Look, too to see if classes include project work around real-life issues facing some local health systems. Those have the additional advantage of allowing you to get to know people in the field. I'd also look for classes that require team projects. Finally, figure out which place has the most accessible professors, people who are willing to spend time with you and get to know you. Their personal references later will prove valuable . . . but only if they really know you and the work you have done while in school.

BTW, it is perfectly fine to contact alumni of each program and see how they liked the program and how they've done since leaving. The admissions office should be willing to connect you with former students from their program. said...

This is very helpful. It seems like Hopkins curriculum fit all your description! Thank you for all you do! I'm so glad I found this goldmine of information! Merry Christmas!

Paul Levy said...

Best wishes! said...

Well said Mr. Levy. Sounds like a coward got schooled.

Paul Levy said...

Sorry, did you mean this comment for another post?

Anonymous said...

Mr. Levy, thank you for offering your time to complete strangers asking for common sense career advice. Here I join their ranks to seek your wisdom and perspective. I hold a bachelors in computer information systems and a masters of science in engineering management. I spent 12 years in pharma, med devices, and even took a detour through financial services. I've done it all, from analyst to consultant to project lead. Now I find myself as an IT project manager at a large state run academic healthcare system, and I'm overwhelmed (in a good way) with the sheer scope of the medical center and with how much impact information systems have on virtually every aspect of care and administration in the healthcare system. It has been less than a year and I have already implemented an eICU at a community hospital, pop health modules in our EHR, and a provider master data system. I'm enjoying my work and think I have found my "calling" if you will. Where I'm struggling is my lack of clinical and healthcare knowledge, and I'm finding that while my med device and pharma experience is useful, it provides very little grounding for the types of systems I'm managing now. Obviously I'm not going to med school, but have been researching some of these M degrees - MPH, MHA. I don't think a degree in health informatics or health IT would be as useful as I feel it would give me much of the foundational technical knowledge I already have. What advice would you have for me? Thank you in advance Mr. Levy and happy new year.

Paul Levy said...

Unclear to me that another degree is what you need. Perhaps, instead, some specialized training to fill some gaps you are feeling. Any degree program is going to require that you spend lots of time on things you don't really need or necessarily want. You've shown an ability to get a lot of good stuff done already. Why not contact some of the really good CIOs out there and get their advice on how to round out what you need?

Anonymous said...

Thank you for this advice Mr. Levy, I suspect that you are correct. Most of what I'm being told is "get out there and live with the doctors" to understand how they want (and need) to use computer systems. So that is where I'll focus rather than pursuing another degree, at least for now.

Paul Levy said...

Best of luck. I'm sure you'll do very well!

Anonymous said...

Mr. Levy,

If I was interviewing for a position at your hospital, would you be more impressed if you see my MBA degree with a healthcare focus from a low tier University (Mount Vernon Nazarene University rank #163) or a degree in Masters in Healthcare Management from Johns Hopkins University?

The MBA program from Mount Vernon is $19,000 while the one from Hopkins is $46,000.

Paul Levy said...

I'd be more interested in you than in your degree. Let's say you had gone to Mt. Vernon at night, putting yourself through school while working a full time job. Let's say you had done some really neat internships. Let's say your professors really knoew you well and gave you excellent recommendations.

Of course, that's my view. It's probably not shared by others in the East Coast or West Coast academic medical centers. They would look at your credentials and the status of your school.